Transcript
Oops! Our video transcriptions might have a few quirks since they’re hot off the press. Rest assured, the good stuff is all there, even if the occasional typo slips through. Thanks for understanding.
Kwame:
What's up everybody? Welcome to today's episode of Beyond Influence. Today we have Zack, the main man, Goytowksi with us. Zack, how are you doing today, man?
Zack:
Good, a little sleep-deprived, but I'm doing good.
Kwame:
A little sleep-deprived. Tell us a little bit about why you're sleep-deprived, Zack.
Zack:
Oh, new dad life, just up late at night, feeding a little girl. It's honestly the greatest blessing in my life, man. It's so awesome.
Scott:
Awesome. How old is your daughter now?
Zack:
Four months. Four months old.
Scott:
Awesome.
Kwame:
She's got you used to the dad life as well. You've got two kids. Is this what it was like when it all started?
Scott:
Yeah, it's stages and phases, and it's interesting. I feel very far removed from all things baby at the moment, but I was just having that conversation about how now it's all soccer games and gymnastics and school pickups and drop-offs, but yeah, four months is, you're kind of coming out of it a little bit, but still in the thick of it.
Zack:
Yeah. Well, I don't know. We came out of it and then now we're back. So we're kind of going through a sleep regression where the sleep cycle has changed. But it's awesome. The cycle is really unpredictable right now. It's random.
Kwame:
Wow. Okay. Well, Zack, we'll get deeper into talking a bit about your newborn, but I wanted to just start with you. There might be some people out there who don't know who Zack Goytowski is. So, Zack, could you tell us a little bit about yourself, man?
Zack:
Yeah. I am a Pacific Northwest lawyer. I practice, right now, primarily personal injury is where I'm working, but most of my history as a lawyer has been focused on criminal defense and litigation. I moved to Seattle about two years and seven months ago, something like that.
And it's February, right. And then, I met Kwame here on the Netflix show Love Is Blind, where we both fell in love with our wives, and now we're married and living out life with the love of my life. And, yeah, just taking it one day at a time.
Scott:
How, I'm curious with the law practice because a lot of people, they jump into an influencer life or they go down a certain path. And it feels like for most, like your career and your primary way that you made money or your identity is shifted. And I'm curious for you as a lawyer with your practice, how has that changed?
How is life different? Is it the same? It feels like especially in criminal defense, after having that much notoriety, it would feel different.
Zack:
Yeah. And that was one of the motivations with the shift into personal injury litigation, but the core of it's the same. I used to practice in a small town. Everybody knew everybody. And so, I don't think it's, you know, when people just happen to know you who you've never met.
It's not that big of a deal. I don't think, but sometimes there's some weird interactions I actually had, this is wild. And I just recently started working with a new firm. I got this email about there being a deposition that had taken place, and I just thought it was a case that the other lawyer was handling and that they just CC'd me on it, so I didn't think anything of it.
And I got a call from them, and they were asking me about this deposition that had taken place in California. And I'm like, well, I'm not licensed to practice in California. I don't practice there. And they read out the transcript to me and it says the lawyer identifies himself as Zack Goytowski and like, first of all, it didn't take place in California.
And there's definitely I'm pretty sure I'm the only Zack with a "K" on the planet currently. So, I'm like, what is going on? Is there another lawyer? Do we have a suit situation here? Is there a clone out there who is pretending to be me? But I mean, and they had all my information that I was like, what is going on?
So the company that was working with the stenographer, they actually went and looked and apparently the person did not identify themselves as me. They just happened to be Zack with a long last name that started with a G.
And I guess the court reporter who was writing it down had watched Love Is Blind and when they wrote it down, they wrote it as Zack Grotowski?
Kwame:
And that is great. The odds of that happening are so slim that it's actually kind of crazy that it actually happened. But obviously, you know, things have changed significantly since Love Is Blind and you have a bit more notoriety now. And occasionally stenographers write your name down instead of somebody else's.
You know when we got out of this, you started out, we started out with the same agency, you know, and I remember getting into this idea of content creation and what it's all about. And one thing that really struck me was how in-depth you were with every single deal that you got in terms of understanding and analyzing the contracts because you really wanted to know what was going on, you know?
And yeah, I'd love to kind of just dive in a little bit deeper on how you started looking at content creation from an "I want to make sure that I'm safe in everything that I do" aspect of it, because you were so thorough with these contracts.
Zack:
You got to feel comfortable just walking away. And, you know, not everybody's in that position. Some people are in a position where they really need the money. And so it's a really hard decision for them. But if you have the ability, man, I'm just saying, I don't think I've ever looked back at a time I said no to a brand, and I was like, man, I wish I had, you know what I mean?
Like every time I've said no and I've had some ones where it was a pretty firm no where there were brands that were like, hey, you know, this is a, I won't go into like the money amount, but it was a large amount of money.
And, you know, you have someone in the middle who is trying to push us on things, boundaries that we had already said, you know, specifically, like, you know, we've told every brand our daughter is not involved in any brand deal at all. And, like, we've gotten kickback, after deals that were made before she was even born, and I and I've said, no, we're walking away like, and there's no deal happening here.
And it was a big amount of money. And I just said, look, you know, they want to pull out here after we've already kind of done this. That's fine. But no is a no. And this is not negotiable. And I just think you got to set your boundaries. You got to set your expectations and just stay firm to them.
You're never going to regret that. You're always going to. You're always going to be in the long run. You will always be proud that you did that. And, I think that's so important because it's easy to get caught up in fear, and forget about what really matters.
Kwame:
Yeah. And, I agree with that wholeheartedly. I think we've all been in positions where we didn't really have as much of an option to say no. I think if you really work hard and you can position yourself in a place where you can push back and really highlight the options that you have and like, present the value of who you are, it really helps you to maintain your personality, maintain who you are as a, as a creator, as a human being, like, maintain that dignity.
I think it's really important. So I think it all comes back to just being yourself and presenting yourself and putting your best foot forward and saying, hey, this is who I am, this is what I stand for, and I can't. I can't betray that for a few dollars. You know? I know I talked to some creators once, you know, in different scenarios.
And at the end of the day, I've had these moments myself as a creator, where you get a contract, you know, it's a certain amount of money and you may not exactly agree with everything that you have to do, but you just like you know what? It's enough that I'm just like, whatever I'll get it done, get this content out and move on, you know?
But I've talked to some creators who are like, hey, you know, I had maybe a million followers and I knew I was about to do this thing that was going to lose me. Followers. And I posted this thing and I lost like 100,000 followers. Right. You know, I got my 60 K 70 K out of it, which, you know, at that degree, it's definitely such a big lump sum, such a sizable amount, then it's hard for someone to turn down.
But if you are in a position to be able to turn those down. On the flip side, I've had someone who was a creator who got an offer as a contract. They I think had about 2 million followers. The initial contract was with a brand that they didn't really gel with, and it was for about 50 K.
They were like, hey, like, you know, this is what I would need for it to work out. And they went back and forth and they eventually turned it down. And then about six months later, a brand that they really, really gelled with came back, which if they had picked the first brand, the exclusivity would have actually made, made them unable to work with any other brand within that same industry.
Their brand that they actually liked more came back and offered them about 200 K for a one-year partnership, which like one, the money is insane. But also two, you're getting to actually align with a brand that you gel with something that fits your persona, something that fits your brand, who you are as a creator. And it all came because you stayed true to yourself.
And so I don't know. Long story short, I feel like it all works itself out full circle.
Zack:
Yeah. And I think the thing that I would tell people is don't be afraid to say no and not even just know in the context of a brand, but like during. Right. Because what, what I've, what I've seen is sometimes you'll work with people and they, they'll want you to do something, they'll want more or something that doesn't really align with your, with your identity or how you, you know, your, your specific artistic, presence.
You can get over you can probably get a little bit or two over the top with that, depending on your personality. But I think if it's if it's core to like your personality if they want you to do something different, then you feel like is consistent with your identity. I just say, now, you know, and like walk away and I'll tell you the power of, walking away is, is so huge because there's a lot of bluffing and bolstering, you know, and there's a lot of, you know, a lot of times the people that you're interacting with aren't actually the brands, right?
They're usually they're it's an intermediary. Right. And they're going to try to push you to get, you know, what they think in their mind is best for the brand, but the brand might not even really care. And they really don't want to go back to the brand and say, hey, I actually lost you. You know, I know we were in the middle of this.
They have to explain why this person dropped out in the middle of the deal. And, because they were pushing them to do something that they had never agreed to and already. Right. And so it's I think there's just so much power in, in, in saying no and setting your boundaries and just being like, hey, no, this is I'm not.
But, you know, being creative problem solvers, I think is another thing that people often miss. In conflict and negotiations, you know, people get fixed and, and looking at negotiation as a zero-sum game rather than identifying interests. And if you get fixated on a single variable, that's one recommendation. And I've taken this since, like, I, it is it's funny because I'm a huge believer in interest-based negotiations and negotiating in packages.
It's something I used to negotiate competitively, when I was in law school. So I competed for the ABA, mock trial or mock negotiation. I did compete in the mock trial team, too, but, the mock negotiations and, one of the big skills that I developed from that was negotiating in packages, because when people get fixated on variables and they're like, okay, so this much money or this much money, it turns it into a zero-sum game.
It's like, I win, you lose. But when we create different knobs for negotiations where we say, okay, look, you know, we can provide at this value, but these are variables we're going to need to alter. So would you like me to do this with this quality of production? Would you like me to do this, with this, this long of the video, would you like me to get a formal editor?
Would you like…. You know, you start giving options, and now we can start moving things around because they may be fixed, right? But monetarily, they can't really budge on money. But there's other variables, and, and ways that they can offer you value and you can offer them value. And being able to create value and identify things that are valuable, it always enhances the negotiation.
Scott:
I love that we talk about all the time, like the non-monetary gives. And there's like so many different aspects and it is interesting as a business to be, you know, or a creator to be negotiating back and forth. And I think there are so many different variables in which you can concede a term you can consider, you can concede, you know, the way certain clauses are going to handle liability or payment terms or frequency or there's just so many different angles to deals that, I think a little bit of creativity and understanding what's motivating different individuals based on their needs.
So a creator who needs the money is going to be motivated in a certain way. The brand who has to get this campaign out because they have a deadline or there's very, you know, they care more about speed than total volume, then give them speed for costs versus giving them or whatever it might be. So it's interesting to see those variables.
It's funny talking about, morals the whole time we're going through that. It's interesting in our work as, you know, doing running influencer marketing campaigns and selling our platform, I think about once a month I get pinged and it's, hey, you know, when I used to work at blah blah blah agency, we ran all of influencer for Obama's campaign, or we run all of influencer for Biden's campaign.
And, you know, we start to walk through, you know, tell me more about what happened there. And they'll be like, yeah, they have like a $20, $30 million budget for influencer. And you're like, that sounds pretty nice. But then at the same time you're going to alienate half the country. You're going to alienate half your potential brands. You're making a statement without making a statement.
And it is hard to make a principled decision when you're staring in the face of a hitting all of your goals for the year. And it's just there. It is really interesting. And so we've had to make these very principles, you know, principle-based stances on certain types of business politics being a major one where we're we're going to be, just disengage altogether and we're not going to pick sides because of the ramifications of consequences and not wanting to, you know, I think there's interest.
There's so many consequences because our if our employers feel a particular way or like, what if you have a highly Democratic campaign specialist who now is trying to think of really great campaign ideas for the Trump campaign, it's just like it's a very interesting dynamic that creates so much conflict.
Zack:
Yeah, it's almost something that I think politics are one of those things, that you probably need to specialize in. Right. Like it would be something that makes sense for sure. And, yeah, I definitely can understand where you're coming from with that.
Scott:
But yeah, it's interesting, I think whether you're credit or whether you're business, you have to make those trade out decisions constantly.
Zack:
Yeah. One of the last things I wanted to, kind of say with that conversation, that we're having is I think another thing to remember is the power of reciprocity. And I think it's really easy for people to get caught up in, like, what's someone giving me? You know, like, oh, I'm not going to give this value because no one's giving me.
I think, you know, you should just try to give as much value to the people in your life or the, the things that matter to you, like, focus on on giving without getting something in return, and it will come back. Sometimes it won't, but you know, it all. All kind of tends to work out. And I think like in the context of, of, like the space that we're in, if, if there's a product or, something that you use in your life naturally.
And you think it's valuable, just share it. Just like, share that with people. One thing that that I, I'm actually like, you wouldn't know this because I don't really I post about it in my stories, but I don't really post any of it on to like my grid or anything. But I am obsessive about health and fitness and like what goes and like, but in a in a very unique way.
I think that's maybe different than some people. Because I even though I obsess over the nuance of what I put in my body, what nutrients I need it, certain timing, timing, windows, things like that. I take a very moderate approach to exercise and fitness, which is I tend I try to maximize for happiness, and I think people get people get so fixated on like they're like, oh my God, my workout.
I got to have the best workout or I'm not going to do it. And people gravitate towards this grind mentality, but I swear, like, I, I work out like usually ten minutes a day, like that's like ten minutes a day, but do it almost every day. Like. And sometimes it's even shorter, like I my rule is I, I do one minute of air squats after I get out of the shower.
I kid you not. That's like that. That's my one day. That's it. And and for like, one minute of working out a day, I feel like, you know, I'm definitely not like, I'm not like, quote me over here.
But I'm happy with the middle ground, you know, but I, I do talk I share about that philosophy, with people, and I share about, while I may not be like the ultimate fitness guy. You know, I'm not trying to be like… I'm a dad, right? I just want to make sure I'm healthy and I'm happy, and I'm going to live a long life.
And so I share a lot about, like, the, the supplements that I take and the things that I use in my daily life. And some of these brands wouldn't really be interested in me, you know, because I'm not like, I, you know, I'm not like a chiselled, you know, Greek statue, like, cool.
Kwame:
You know, I'd love to just lighten up and ask, like, what has been some of your favorite parts about becoming a creator?
Zack:
Yeah. You know, I think this is, this is probably like the, the thing that I would like, articulate, like the most important thing that I'd like, hope people would hear if they have a platform in a space, is to forget about, like, forget about the money side of, of it. Like, just like ask yourself what?
What is it that you want the world to hear, right? What is it you want to share with the world? What really matters to you? And try to focus on that with your content. You know, whether you're making humorous videos or, you just sharing your daily life, like, what is it you think the world really needs to hear?
Like, what really matters to you? And you know, we kind of talked about, like, the hard decisions about, like, what do you say and what do you not say? What brands do you, you know, work with what what fields? But I mean, ultimately, like, what is it that really matters to you? And share that, share that with people.
So for me, I would say, you know, when all of, you know, when all of this happened, like when we went on Love Is Blind and, and we did all that, like, the number one thing in my head that I realized is like, no one's going to be listening to me more than in this moment, right?
Like, you know, when we were at the reunion I knew like, what is it that I want the world to hear? And truthfully, like, the thing that I really want people to hear is the power of love, the power of forgiveness and grace and to try to have a little bit more understanding for people that are different than you, or people who have hurt you, or people who have made mistakes, and that all life can be redeemed.
And I think, like if you go to my, you know, if you go to my profile, you'll see like that has been on my grid since the beginning like that is that I've had I actually had, someone tell me that I should take down, the story of my mother. That's on the top of my grid.
Because brands, brands. Look at the beginning of your grid and they'll decide, like, okay, this is someone who's in shoes. This is someone who does health and fitness, you know, so they base their decisions on brands based on what's on your front row. Like what? What is what is it that you're exposing people to.
And, you know, I just don't care, like I genuinely don't care, about that side. Because for me, the question is, is like, and I still, you know, I, I'd say like I have people messaging me every day, like, based on the story of my mother and, and how that has affected them and how they, they relate to that, connect to that.
And I don't know if we can all just make the world just a little bit better place by being just a little bit more empathetic, a little bit more caring, a little bit more forgiving. It'll become a better world for everyone, including our children. Just keep asking yourself like, what is it? What is it? I want my legacy to be like, what?
What is it that I want? I want to leave for my children. What does I want to how do I want to impact the world? And I think if you focus on that first, everything else will work out.
Scott:
I think it's a good point. I think, you know, there's so many ways to connect with people and to provide people with, positivity with, with entertainment. And it is interesting, like understanding. It's interesting the sneaker example, because a lot of people find joy in learning and finding community and, and building relationships with other people around this passion that they have.
And, and so I think that, you know, it's really interesting because I think we take a look at a lot of creators and like, oh, they just say blah, blah, blah, creator. But I think when you unpack, they're really, really great creators and the ones that have large followings. So this is something we talked with a lot of folks about.
They find a way to transfer and whatever that simple topic is and ultimately build community, connect with individuals. And there's some type of other, yyou know, speaking of parenting, you know, I talked to my wife a lot about her feed and like what she sees. And it's really interesting because there's this entire kind of niche of content creation on the internet, around the struggles of parenting and the challenges of parenting and the pieces of content.
It's like someone out there hears me, someone feels my struggles. Someone understands that I've been, we've gone through sleep regression. I got my dog barking, and my kid I can get my camera like it's just like they understand my life and those content pieces, like, you know, they bridge a divide between people, and. And they make you, you know, often they're like, hey, I'm not alone in this, which is really interesting.
And I'm not, you know, it doesn't all have to be that way. And some content just is simply there to entertain or whatever. But I do think that that is one of the really powerful things about social media is that no matter kind of what walk of life, what stage you're and what you're struggling with, there's probably there is someone out there who's gone through it is going through it, sees you, feels you, hears you, understands your perspective.
And it's interesting. I've had a, you know, discussion with a lot of dads, no matter how good of a dad you are. And I know obviously the kind of character that you have and the amount of, thoughtfulness that you put into to being a dad, you will never fully understand what it means to be a mother.
And that's okay. And when Bliss turns to you and she says, I had such a hard night and it was so tough. And my body is destroyed, my identity is changed. And you go, I know, I know, babe, and she's like, you will never know. And that's okay. But I think there are people on the internet creating content who do now, who have faced those demons, who have experienced that night, who have had complete identity crisis about, you know, taking a step back from what they define themselves as to become a mom.
And it's very, very interesting. And that space of the internet, that space is social. I think people want to go and see products based on recommendations from people who have that really deep, deep understanding. They want to hear what it's like five months from now. So I have hope it's two years from now. So I have hope. And so I feel like, am I making these decisions for my four-month-old that are going to change and affect her life forever, or is it going to be okay?
And you know, am I working too much? Am I not feeding her the right things or enough? And you're health conscious? You're like, should she be having these nutrients now? And I think we get really, really hung up on that. And there is a community, there's this resonance in in community that's built. So I love it. You said not to make it all about, you know, child and parental, struggles and whatnot.
But I do think to your point, giving back can simply be sharing your story and providing someone with hope with a point of view. A perspective, that no one else can provide because they haven't walked that walk yet.
Zack:
I think that is the most important thing to remember. Actually, it's like your story is one of the most powerful ways that you can help people. And I really believe this, that there is someone, you know, I think, like when we talk about mental health and, and like the struggle of life and how hard life can get, I think one of the things where people really get dark is they feel like they're big, they're valueless.
They feel like that no one needs them. And I think that can put people into a really dark spiral. And I think the thing to always remember is that there's someone out there that only you can uniquely touch that they have lived. Like you may not be the greatest orator, right? You may not have achieved a great a great amount of things.
You might just be literally the most average or sub-average person. Right? But there's someone in your life who who connects with you and has experienced those things, or has a relationship with you because of circumstance that only you can, can uniquely affect. And I really believe that, I think every person has, has, an unmeasurable amount of value that they can provide to another.
And we get so caught up in comparing ourselves to other people, that we forget that, like, you know, to my, to my daughter, her mom and me are the most important people in the world, right? We might not be that to anybody else. But to her, we are. And I think just realizing that you uniquely have value.
I think it's just really important. Something to remind people that their story is powerful. There's people who you can connect with and help with your story.
Scott:
It's interesting. And I, you know, coming back, to kind of the influencer marketing side of things. I think when people ask me, why is this such a powerful way of communicating and storytelling for brands and building community and, and getting things out there? I think it is because no brand, no celebrity, most mostly, you know, is not going to create that deep of a resonance and that deep of a connection where I would ever care as much as I care about, you know, the input of that person that I deeply resonate with and, and, and you can take it in a really negative way where it's like, okay, you're going to co-opt this person because of their shared life experience. Whatever.
I think creator marketing and influencer marketing done right, is allowing people to explore really, really great products, services that help them and and and make their lives genuinely better. And people who they trust, who have this deep resonance with them, helping them discover those products. There is something magical on that, and there's a whole lot of ways to go wrong with it.
But when you nail it and it's like I resonate so deeply with this creator, with their story, with everything that they stand for, and then they they recommend something to me that's going to make my life better. And then it does. It's like the whole world is working in sync and like, shit's going how it's supposed to go.
And I love that. And I think those are the kind of moments, those are the better experiences that I hope we have as a consequence of social media. We're not going to get it right. But I think to the extent that we as creators, as marketers, you know, people in this trade can help facilitate that really great exchange of value.
I think it's going to be a good outcome.
Zack:
Yeah. I think that that's you know, when it when then that's kind of what I was talking about, like saying no because when, when it's done right, you're really creating win win situations, right. Because when, when there's something that like, you really believe in a product that you really believe in, that you think, can bring joy or improve someone's life and you're sharing that, it's value.
I know there's some podcasts that I listen to. Where I want to hear the ads. You know, I want to hear the ads because the the ads that are on there are things that I really like have consistently found to to add value to my life, like the, the good podcasts out there that are, that are niched, to the things that I'm interested in.
I'm like, oh, whoa. And I'll like, type it in or take a screenshot because I'm like, that's actually something that I think would add value. A funny one, a funny one. I know we're short on time that it's not even really it's not even related to like, a brand. Somehow Facebook targeted me for Onewheel advertisements. Okay.
And I don't know if you know what one wheel is.
Scott:
I get all the same ads. Yeah.
Zack:
Oh, my God, dude, I love it, I love it, so I didn't even know what it was. I didn't even know what it was. It's not like at first, you know, I saw like, five ads, like, oh, that looks interesting. It's just this, like, wheel on the dirt. And then eventually I clicked on it. I was like, this looks pretty cool.
And I remember I spent a year… I'm like a very slow purchaser. I'm like, the worst person you'd ever want to sell something to, because I want to analyze every decision I want to and like it's it's really beneficial as, like a lawyer, you know, it's an attribute that you want from your lawyer.
You want that like the slow decision making with analyzing, trying to make sure sitting, ruminating on it, thinking back, going back. It's not always like the most favorable when you need to like order some food.
But long story short, man, Onewheel. I'm an addict to riding Onewheels. Man.At one point it was like my main transportation when I used to live in, when I used to live in my old town. I would, like, ride to my office with my briefcase on my one wheel and a suit, a big old smile on my face, and, like, it's the best ad I've ever gotten.
I didn't even know about it if it wasn't for an advertisement. And I. I'm hooked. I got two of them. Call me. You saw that? Gone. Onewheeling with me. We got it. We got to go one way. Like.
Kwame:
Oh, man. You know what? That's a funny spot to stop us at, you know, Onewheeling as the overarching message of the conversation. But no, I think there have been some really powerful things said. And I think the main message that I'm getting out of this conversation is that we've all been given an opportunity to amplify our voices, especially those with a large audience or a large community.
And I think it is our responsibility to tune in to that and to really show people the experiences that we are going through in hopes that some people are going through those experiences as well. And we can help be a North Star for them, and help them, you know, maybe get to a place of reassurance and realization that there is hope and there is light ahead of them.
So, hopefully somebody gets to listen to this and see some light at the end of the tunnel. But with that being said, we appreciate everyone so much for tuning in to be on influence today. Thank you, Zack, for being here.
Zack:
It's a pleasure for sure.
Kwame:
And with that being said, we will see you next week.
Zack:
All right. See you Kwame. See you Scott.